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P r 0 t 3 s T
Ohio Police Arrest Woman For $1 In Unpaid Taxes
Unfiled City Tax Forms Also Cited In Case

POSTED: 9:59 am EDT October 13, 2005
UPDATED: 12:09 pm EDT October 13, 2005

LOVELAND, Ohio -- An Ohio woman was arrested after she didn't pay just more than $1 that she owed in income taxes, WLWT-TV in Cincinnati reported.

Deborah Combs owed the city of Loveland $1.16 last year, but she also hadn't filed her city income tax forms in five years, the television station said.

She said officers pulled her over and acted as though she were a violent criminal.

"One sheriff approached my car with his hand on his gun," she said. "Another from the other side of the car leaned in and said, 'Are you Deborah Combs?' He said, 'We have a warrant for your arrest.' I was absolutely shocked."

Combs said she thinks the arrest and charges are over-the-top for the amount she owed.

"What they've spent in stamps is more than what I owe," she said.

She could also end up paying hundreds of dollars in fines for the unfiled tax forms, the television station reported.

Loveland City Manager Fred Enderle said the amount Combs owes isn't the real issue.

"Whether it's $1 they owe us or $1,000, it's not fair to the rest of the public to not pursue that person," he said. "There is some expense involved, but it goes back to the principle. We have laws. The laws have to be complied with. At what cost do you stop enforcing the law?"

Combs is scheduled to appear in court Oct. 20.

http://www.local6.com/money/5093711/detail.html
Sad Machine
QUOTE(P r 0 t 3 s T @ Oct 17 2005, 09:47 PM)
"Whether it's $1 they owe us or $1,000, it's not fair to the rest of the public to not pursue that person," he said.
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Yeah, but I would think there would be different...levels?...of handling the person. Good grief.
Rapist Eyes
Wow...

His hand on his gun, even? I guess this really doesn't surprise me at all. Kind of sad.
P r 0 t 3 s T
I figured this would be a good thread considering the "Equality" discussion that has been going on.

$1.16 vs $1,000....

Apparently we are already considered equal in some people's eyes huh?
Rapist Eyes
QUOTE(P r 0 t 3 s T @ Oct 17 2005, 09:00 PM)
I figured this would be a good thread considering the "Equality" discussion that has been going on.

$1.16 vs $1,000....

Apparently we are already considered equal in some people's eyes huh?
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Ohio doesn't count.
kate
from the article...

QUOTE
but she also hadn't filed her city income tax forms in five years, the television station said.


hmmm...me thinks there's more to this story than what is being reported...
P r 0 t 3 s T
QUOTE(kate @ Oct 17 2005, 11:09 PM)
from the article...
hmmm...me thinks there's more to this story than what is being reported...
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http://tax.ohio.gov/divisions/ohio_individ..._disclosure.stm

Maybe she was in agreement with the Ohio Department of Taxation.
Poetic_Terrorist
income tax is unconstitutional.. dont pay it.
kate
QUOTE(Poetic_Terrorist @ Oct 17 2005, 08:28 PM)
income tax is unconstitutional.. dont pay it.
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probably none of my business, but do you not pay income tax?
Poetic_Terrorist
QUOTE(kate @ Oct 17 2005, 10:15 PM)
probably none of my business, but do you not pay income tax?
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nope not this year, just cause i didnt have to.. ya know made under 7,700 dollars. wink.gif

though, there are still ways around it.. ala 14th amendment... read it closely, then read income tax law and see for yourself. smile.gif
Skweakx
QUOTE(Rapist Eyes @ Oct 17 2005, 11:07 PM)
Ohio doesn't count.
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hahahahahaha biggrin.gif
[r]evolution
although i laughed, we are a country of laws. everyone has to comply ...

she should be thankful $1 was all she owed to begin with. she should have paid like the rest of us, regardless of whether it was a dollar, or hundred.
Ogre
QUOTE(Poetic_Terrorist @ Oct 18 2005, 04:34 AM)
nope not this year, just cause i didnt have to.. ya know made under 7,700 dollars. wink.gif

though, there are still ways around it.. ala 14th amendment... read it closely, then read income tax law and see for yourself. smile.gif
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All this says is that if you want to live in this country, you have to pay your Taxes. Freedom is far from free, it takes Billions to run a country. Do your part, pay your taxe.

Income Taxes .--The authority of states to tax income is ''universally recognized.'' Years ago the Court explained that ''[e]njoyment of the privileges of residence in the state and the attendant right to invoke the protection of its laws are inseparable from responsibility for sharing the costs of government. . . . A tax measured by the net income of residents is an equitable method of distributing the burdens of government among those who are privileged to enjoy its benefits.'' Also, a tax on income is not constitutionally suspect because retroactive. The routine practice of making taxes retroactive for the entire year of the legislative session in which the tax is enacted has long been upheld, and there are also situations in which courts have upheld retroactive application to the preceding year or two.

P r 0 t 3 s T
This is worth reading, short and to the point.

Our Senators/Congressmen do not pay into Social Security, and, therefore they do not collect from it. Social Security benefits were not suitable for them. They felt they should have a special plan. Many years ago they voted in their benefit plan. In more recent years, no congress person has felt the need to change it. After all, it is a great plan.

For all practical purposes, their plan works like this: When they retire no matter how long they have been in office, they continue to draw their same pay until they die, except it may be increased from time to time by the cost-of-living adjustments.

For example, former Senator Bill Bradley (New Jersey) and his wife may be expected to draw $7,900,000.00 over an average life span, with Mrs. Bradley drawing $275,000.00 during the last year of her life. Their cost for this excellent plan is "0," nada, zilch. This little perk they voted in for themselves is free to them. You and I pick up the tab for this plan. Our tax dollars at work.

Social Security, which you and I pay into every payday for our own retirement, with an equal amount matched by our employer, we can expect to get an average of $1,000 per month. Or, we would have to collect our benefits for 68 years and 1 month to equal the Bradley's benefits. Imagine for a moment that you could structure a retirement plan so desirable, a retirement plan that worked so well, that Railroad Employees, Postal Workers, and others who were not in the plan would clamor to be included. This is how good Social Security could be, if only one small change was made.

That change would be to jerk the Golden Fleece Retirement Plan out from under the Senators/Congressmen. Put them 4into the Social Security plan with the rest of us. Watch how fast they fix it.

If enough people receive this maybe a seed will be planted, and maybe good changes will evolve.

Don't forget, our girl, Hillary Rodham Clinton, thanks to the infinite wisdom of New York State voters, now comes under this Congressional Retirement Plan.

Talking about the Clinton's, it's common knowledge that, in order for her to establish NYS residency, they purchased a million + house in upscale Chappaqua, NY. Makes sense.

Now, they are entitled to Secret Service protection for life. Still makes sense.

Here is where it becomes interesting. A residency had to be built in order to house the Secret Service agents. The Clinton's now charge the Secret Service rent for the use of said residence and that rent is just about equal to their mortgage payment, meaning that we, the tax payers, are paying the Clinton's mortgage and it's all perfectly legal.


http://www.freerepublic.com/forum/a3b5dd7225148.htm
(FreeRepublic.com "A Conservative News Forum" )
Daemonicus
^^^I couldn't agree more with you, dude. Our leaders should be held to the same standards we are. They should be showing the world by example that we are a nation of equal citizens. Of course, I'll know when this happens because my room down here in hell will get real cold.
lilpixie
she hasn't filed in 5 yrs and she only owes a $1.
wow.
lucky her.
Xx_Letum_Raine_xX
rolleyes.gif Another cool point to ohio....
Grendelvs
yo, Protest. Snopes says no.

http://www.snopes.com/politics/taxes/pensions.asp
Grendelvs
QUOTE(Poetic_Terrorist @ Oct 17 2005, 11:28 PM)
income tax is unconstitutional.. dont pay it.
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could you expound on that for me, please? and don't say "read the 14th Amendment," quote applicable bits. PLEASE.

oh yeah...the Supreme Court has stated that a claim that the law is invalid or unconstitutional is not a valid defense against "willful" tax evasion or failure to file.
Grendelvs
i'd also like to add that there are several instances of the Supreme Court shooting people down when the Constitutionality of the income tax is in question.

however...if you're interested in a better way to fight "The Man," take a look at the IRC itself. the IRS hates it when taxpayers actually READ the law and find that their income isn't always taxable. heh.
Poetic_Terrorist
QUOTE(Grendelvs @ Oct 26 2005, 10:31 PM)
could you expound on that for me, please? and don't say "read the 14th Amendment," quote applicable bits. PLEASE.

oh yeah...the Supreme Court has stated that a claim that the law is invalid or unconstitutional is not a valid defense against "willful" tax evasion or failure to file.
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Here something to get you started.. on income tax and the Federal Reserve Bank...

QUOTE
The Federal Reserve System: How It Robs You Blind

Jim Moore | November 30 2004

Let's start at the beginning, so high-finance dummies like you and me can get at least a half-way understanding of it. We're speaking here about the U.S. Constitution and your money, and how the Federal Reserve System sidesteps the former to steal more of the latter. Right out of your pocket, by the way.

I'll try to keep it simple.

Article 1, Section VIII, of the U.S. Constitution lists 18 things which the Congress and only the Congress, has the power to do. Of those 18 things, three have to do with money directly.

Congress alone is authorized to:

(1) Borrow money on the credit of the United States

(2) Coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the standard of weights and measures.

(3) Provide for the punishment of counterfeiting the securities and current coin of the United States.

Unless my copy of the U.S. Constitution was altered while I was asleep, it says nothing, NOTHING, about any institution, corporation, association, think tank, or individual, having the authority to do anything, ANYTHING, with America's money, except the Congress of the United States. Period.

But wait a minute? How can this be, when men like Dr. Don J. Grundmann calls the Federal Reserve System, which controls our money, "the biggest financial crime in the history of the United States?"

Who is Dr. Grundmann? The American Independent Party's candidate for the U.S. Senate in 2004. So we're not talking about some conspiracy clown with a whoopee agenda.

Dr. Grundmann tells in simple, straight-forward terms, how the American people are being shafted by the Federal Reserve System.

These are the points Grundmann makes.

First, the Federal Reserve is NOT part of the U.S. Government. So the name.

"Federal" is a screen. The Fed is staffed by independent bankers and financiers who have nothing to do with the U.S. government, they are in business for themselves.

As you read, might keep THAT in mind.

THE CONSTITUTIONAL WAY: The government issues money based on the authority of the Constitution. Government services are paid by our taxes which it collects INTEREST FREE. So the government costs us only what the Constitution allows.

THE FEDERAL RESERVE WAY: The government issues money by GIVING its money-making authority to a PRIVATE BANK (the Federal Reserve) and then borrowing money from that private bank at an INTEREST RATE.

Here it is, even simpler: The Federal Reserve makes money out of nothing, then lends it to the U.S. Government, WITH INTEREST.

If you look closely it isn't hard to see where, with this kind of a scam, the nation will be forever in debt to the Federal Reserve. The debt and interest on loans from the Fed will keep getting larger, never smaller. More and more of our labor must be spent paying interest to the Fed for their "loans" to the nation.

The nation, unfortunately then, is not serving the interests of its citizens, but rather, serving the interests of the people who really control the nation---the private and unaccountable bank, which is stealing the financial resources of America and giving us fiat money that the Fed has created out of nothing.

If this scam is difficult to fully understand, the consequences are not. We see it all around us: two parents having to work to support a family, constantly rising prices, the devaluation of our dollar, impoverishment of many citizens, collapse of our middle class; all the results of a decaying economy.

And the reason you don't see angry opposition to this malevolent, unconstitutional, vampire banking system called the Federal Reserve is because it exerts control over the media to the point where average citizens have let the ogre of "high finance" scare them into submission, compliance, or complacency.

But we won't get anywhere at taking our money back until we decide enough is enough, kick the Federal Reserve out of the private banking business, and give America's money-making operation back to the Congress where it belongs.

It's more than a challenge. It's critical.


and here a good explanation of the 14th amendment and how most of us have been duped into being slaves, under the power and jurisidiction of Congress, even though the US Constitution was laid out that the Congress was subjected to the jurisidiction of the people... 'We the People..."

QUOTE
Issues of Federal Jurisdiction
http://www.originalintent.org/edu/federaljur.php


Although law dictionary definitions can usually be of value, sometimes some plain speaking is required to make a complex or highly conceptual issue clear. For many people, the topic of "jurisdiction" is a bit fuzzy and difficult to nail down. In an effort to bring the topic into focus, we think it is best to start by defining jurisdiction in the following manner: The authority to act.

If the government has jurisdiction, it has the power to act. If it does not have jurisdiction, it does not have the power to act.

That may seem simplistic, and indeed it is. In a fundamental sense, jurisdiction is that simple.

The difficult part is determining what circumstances gives the government "power to act", and in which circumstances the government is powerless to act.

The average American has been socialized in such a way that it is nearly impossible to imagine a circumstance in which the government (State or federal) is "powerless to act". Fortunately, the perspective to which so many of us have been socialized is legally inaccurate and we can overcome that incorrect perspective simply by getting some correct facts under our belts.

In America, our governments, whether state or federal, are established by The People through the instrument of a constitution. [For more information about constitutions, see the Constitutions section within this site.]

Long before we had a "central government" (i.e. the US government) each of the 13 independent states (formerly colonies of the Crown) had their own Constitutions that provided the structure and limitations of their state governments. In 1789, the states signed the Constitution of the United States, which laid out the structure and limitations of the newly formed United States government. Whether it be a state, or the United States, no government in America can exercise any authority beyond that which is expressly provided to it in the written constitution that created it.


Federal Jurisdiction Over Its "citizens"
Up until the Civil War, federal jurisdiction was a fairly straightforward proposition, without much confusion or complexity. The central question of federal jurisdiction in the pre-Civil War period was not what gave rise to it, or its general limitations, but only where to fix the exact boundary lines in a variety of circumstances. Such questions are proper and healthy to ask and that process continues to this very day. However, at end of the Civil War the federal jurisdiction question was muddied substantially by the adoption of the 14th Amendment. [See the Citizenship section within this site for more information on the 14th Amendment.]

Prior to the Civil War, the only "American" that could be found within a state of the Union was a Citizen of that state, or the Citizen of one of the other states of the Union. Both Citizens held the same "political status" and that status was recognized in the main body of the US Constitution. With the adoption of the 14th Amendment at the close of the Civil War a new form of "citizen" could be found within the states. This new type of citizen was essentially a "federal citizen", having received his citizenship not by birthright (i.e. being born within a state of the Union), but by a vote of the original de jure Citizens of the states, as expressed by their Representatives in Congress and in their state legislatures, as part of the ratification process of the 14th Amendment. This new federal citizen had far fewer rights than a de jure state Citizen and was of a completely different political status. Because his citizenship had been given to him solely through the 14th Amendment, the "rights" that went along with that form of citizenship were exclusively Congress' to protect and enforce.

In many ways, what we are describing is not much different than the non-amendment based political relationship that persons had with Congress if they were born in one of the early frontier Territories. What made this situation distinct was one little phrase in the 14th Amendment:

Section 1 - All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.

Those seven words changed the jurisdictional landscape forever. For the first time in the history of America, there were citizens of a state that did not owe their citizenship to their birth within the state, and the enforcement of their civil liberties was the exclusive domain of the Congress. In other words, for the first time, there were "citizens of a state" upon whom Congress' authority could operate directly and exclusively. What this produced was a situation in which there were [new] "state citizens" upon which Congress' authority could operate directly and exclusively, and [original] "state Citizens" over whom Congress had no authority whatsoever. It doesn't take a genius to foresee the confusion (and abuse) that would soon result from such a situation.

In short, Congress has jurisdiction over citizens who have attained their political status by virtue of the 14th Amendment, but does not have any inherent jurisdiction over Citizens that attained their citizenship solely by virtue of their birth within a state of the Union.


Federal Geographic Jurisdiction
The geographic jurisdiction of the United States is very limited and well defined. Federal geographic jurisdiction is limited to those places where the Unites States is the sovereign.

In the states of the Union, The People are the sovereigns. All power exercised by the state governments flows from the consent of The People.

When the federal government is operating within a state of the Union, and is in contact with a de jure state Citizen, it must respect all the rights, privileges, and immunities of The People.

However, there are places where the people are not sovereign; where the government's power is not derived from the people, and where the US government (in the form of the Congress) is free to act much like a king of old, rather than a servant of the people. These places are specified in the US Constitution at Article I, Section 8, Clause 17, to wit;


To exercise exclusive legislation in all cases whatsoever, over such district (not exceeding ten miles square) as may by cession of particular states, and the acceptance of Congress, become the seat of the government of the United States, and to exercise like authority over all places purchased by the consent of the legislature of the state in which the same shall be, for the erection of forts, magazines, arsenals, dock?yards, and other needful buildings... [emphasis added]
The handshake section is found at Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2:


The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States... [emphasis added]
Together, these two sections have been interpreted by the US Supreme Court to grant Congress the authority to legislate in ways that would be unconstitutional if applied to the states of the Union. [See Downes v. Bidwel, 182 US 244 (1901), and Hooven and Allison Co. v. Evatt, 324 US 674 (1945).] Here is a sound "rule of thumb" for viewing the distinctions in Congressional power:


When legislating for the states of the Union, under the authority of a power granted to the federal government in the Constitution, Congress must stay strictly within the bounds of the power thus granted and limited. However, when legislating for places where the US is the sovereign, Congress may do anything not expressly prohibited by the Constitution.
The two modes of legislating are exactly opposite and give rise to irresistible temptation to use the more permissive (and dangerous) legislative power against the people of the states of the Union.

In his powerful dissent in Downes, Justice Harlan stood opposed to this doctrine of irresistible temptation. Here is an excerpt from his dissent:


"The idea prevails with some, indeed it has found expression in arguments at the bar, that we have in this country substantially two national governments; one to be maintained under the Constitution, with all of its restrictions; the other to be maintained by Congress outside and independent of that instrument, by exercising such power as other nations of the earth are accustomed to…I take leave to say that, if the principles thus announced should ever receive the sanction of a majority of this court, a radical and mischievous change in our system of government will result. We will, in that event, pass from the era of constitutional liberty, guarded and protected by a written constitution into an era of legislative absolutism…IT WILL BE AN EVIL DAY FOR AMERICAN LIBERTY IF THE THEORY OF A GOVERNMENT OUTSIDE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND FINDS LODGEMENT IN OUR CONSTITUTIONAL JURISPRUDENCE. No higher duty rests upon this court than to exert its full authority to prevent all violations of the principles of the Constitution." [emphasis in original]
Justin Harlan expressed grave concern that "mischievous change" would occur in our government if Congress was allowed to legislate without regard to the Constitution. His words echo those of Thomas Jefferson, who said;


"Let no more be said about the confidence of men, but bind them down from mischief with the chains of the Constitution".
The "chains of the Constitution" that Jefferson spoke of were taken off of Congress in Downes v. Bidwell, and "mischievous change" has indeed occurred in abundance!

This distinction in the scope and freedom of Congress to legislate might not be quite so onerous if Congress was required to declare, in writing, at the beginning of every bill, the section of the Constitution that empowers Congress to act, concerning each element of the proposed legislation. In that way concerned Citizens would be able to readily discern whether a law, or a portion of a law, was applicable within the states of the Union, having been authorized by one of the Constitutionally enumerated powers granted to Congress by the states. Efforts to provide such a simple and clear method of Congressional accountability have consistently failed to get to the floor of the House or the Senate for a vote, instead being killed in committee every time.

The prudent American will have to ask himself one question: Why has Congress consistently refused to tell the American people what the specific Constitutional authority is for any law, or portion of law, that it enacts?

Could this simply be coincidence; a mere oversight?


"In politics, nothing happens by accident. If it happens, it was planned that way."
-- Franklin D. Roosevelt
If FDR is right, then Congress' failure to tell you what its authority is to enact various legislation is not an accident, oversight, or mere coincidence. What then is Congress' motive?

In the section on "The Law" in this website, we discuss that fact that the intent and focus of the law in America has been perverted over the last 60 years and now the law primarily serves the following four purposes:


Government control of persons and property.
The receipt of revenue, either by lawful action or extortionate conduct.
The protection of the system that provides for points 1 and 2.
The protection of persons who facilitate points 1, 2, and 3.
We posit this question: At the federal level, would points 1-4 be substantially undermined if Congress were to tell you specifically where a federal law applies, to whom it applies, and under which Constitutional authority it is acting? We think the answer is self-evident.


Subject Matter Jurisdiction
In the US Constitution, the states grant the United States very limited and specific powers. Most of those powers address matters the states thought best handled by a central government. Having said that, most of the powers granted to the federal government by states are not of the nature that such power would be intrusive into the states, or place an obligation upon the Citizens of the states. The primary exception to that rule is the "interstate commerce clause".

Constitution of the United States: Article I, Section 8: Congress shall have the power -


To regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes; [Clause 4]
Any federal legislation that is not based in geographic jurisdiction is almost certainly based on interstate commerce authority. There are relatively few federal laws that depend on any other provisions of the Constitution for their authority. For the sake of this section, we will not address federal authority over foreign commerce as that topic rarely impacts directly the lives of the average American.

When one reads the writings of the Founding Fathers, there is little doubt that the commerce clause (as applied between the states of the Union), was to be used for little more than insuring what we would call today, a "free trade zone". That limited role is quite rightfully where the federal government's authority in interstate commerce should end. Any reach for authority beyond that envisioned by the men who wrote the Constitution should be considered unconstitutional.

The first real exertion of substantial federal power under the interstate commerce clause came with the advent of the railroads in the mid-1800's. The government assumed complete dominion over the early railroads, going so far as to grant regional railroad monopolies through Acts of Congress, as well as owning a large percentage of stock in various early railroad corporations. The power and money that came with complete control over such a powerful industry was not lost on Congress. To this very day Congress maintains absolute control over the railroads through regulation. Euphemistically speaking, a railroad company can't blow its nose without Congressional approval.

By the early 20th century Congress had divested itself of its ownership interest in the railroads, but maintained iron-fisted control through regulation. Having seen the power that came with controlling such a powerful industry as the railroads, Congress began looking for new industries to subjugate and control. Much to Congress' dismay, they were fairly limited to postal issues, railroads, navigable waterways and a few roads.

Beginning in the early 1930's Congress started exploring how to expand its interstate commerce authority. The US Attorney General started to argue new expansive interpretations of the commerce clause and was generally unsuccessful until the late into FDR's last term. Toward the end of the 1930's we see the federal courts begin to broaden the government's authority by adopting a new standard in which the US could exercise alleged Constitutional authority in any matter where the issue was "affecting interstate commerce". This was dramatic shift because the government no longer had to limit itself to actual acts of interstate commerce, but could now reach anything that could be shown to have an "effect" upon interstate commerce. Many concerned observers saw this new policy as an open door for even deeper power grabs.

In the mid-1950's that concern was realized when the US Supreme Court agreed that the US could control intra-state commerce if the failure to do so would adversely affect interstate commerce. The original intent of the interstate commerce clause had now been turned squarely on its head. The framers of the Constitution certainly had the prerogative to include the regulation of intra-state commerce as one of the authorities granted to the US if they had so chosen. They did not so choose. What the framers had clearly withheld from the federal government, the federal courts had granted as a matter of mere practicality.

The deeper implications of the Court's ruling is that the US now had the authority to act as a shepherd over the "vitality" of interstate commerce. Obviously such was never the intention of the Founding Fathers.

So what was the intention of the Founding Fathers in allowing the federal government to regulate commerce among the states? The primary source for making this determination is the Federalist Papers. Although the Federalist Papers do not offer any singular all-embracing statement on the subject, the concerns of the day can be seen in a number of observations addressing the lack of such federal power.


War Between The States
During the years that the country operated under the Articles of Confederation, there was no federal authority over commerce between the states. Concerns arose that the actions of individual states concerning trade issues might result in other states taking reprisal steps against neighboring states, and that eventually such circumstances could snowball into open warfare between the states. Their concerns were based on the study of the history of European trade conflicts and how many such conflicts had devolved into war. Since each state was/is its own sovereign nation, the Founding Fathers believed that the temptations and pressures that led to war between European countries might easily repeat themselves in the New World if there was not a central authority to govern and resolve trade conflicts. In other words, the states pledged themselves to allow their trade conflicts with each other to be adjudicated and resolved by the federal government.

One should clearly understand that the Founding Fathers never intended the interstate commerce clause to act directly upon individual Citizens of the states. As in any free nation/state, if merchants, farmers, manufacturers, etc., have concerns about trade relations with other nation/states, the individual Citizen (or group of affected Citizens) pleads his case to his elected representative and that official then attempts to have legislation passed to assist the affected Citizens in achieving an improved trade position. An "improved trade position" may be the result of tariffs, import restrictions, price controls, etc., all of which are valid methods to address trade concerns.

By including the interstate commerce clause in the US Constitution, the states agreed to surrender their prerogative to make laws concerning trade issues to Congress. In short, the states agreed to abide by the decisions of the central government as an alternative to making war over trade issues. It is important to note that the Founding Fathers never intended the federal government to assume complete control over every aspects of commerce between the states, but rather to create a framework of regulation designed to minimize potential conflicts and then to take action only when a conflict appeared to be imminent or a conflict was brought to the courts of United States for resolution.


The States and Foreign Trade
The US Constitution precludes the states from entering into treaties or other agreements with foreign sovereigns. This Constitutional provision serves two purposes, one of which is closely related to the concerns that gave rise to the interstate commerce clause.

The first reason that the states are barred from entering into treaties or any other form of independent agreements with foreign nations is that such actions would embarrass the United State's power to make treaties. Obviously no foreign power would bother to make a treaty with the United States if the states were free to ignore the treaty, or effectively nullify it by entering into their own treaty with an adversarial power. It has long been held that powers granted to the federal government may not be embarrassed by the independent actions of the states.

The second reason, and the one that shares the same concerns as led to the interstate commerce clause, is war between the states. If the states were free to enter into treaties with foreign powers, there is no end to the mischief that could be done to the states through proxies of an aggressive state.

For these reasons, all treaties (including ones pertaining to commerce) are the exclusive domain of the federal government.


Interstate Commerce Authority Used To Usurp State Power
Over the years, the federal courts have expanded the role the federal government can play in State concerns by stretching the "affecting interstate commerce" standard to absurd limits. Let's examine one such case (out of many).

Some people have concerns about children playing with toy guns. Others have concerns that criminals who are afraid of the "use a gun, go to jail" doctrine adopted by many states will use toy guns instead of real guns when committing their crimes. People certainly have right to their views and their concerns, however whichever way you slice these concerns, they are exclusively matters that must be left to the internal police powers of the states to address. Our Founding Fathers did not create a federal government to regulate children's toys.

However, in 1988, under the alleged authority of the interstate commerce clause, Congress passed Public Law 100-615, which controls toy guns. Congress relies upon the commerce clause in this matter because most toys are not made in the state in which they are sold. Most toys are made outside the country and imported, or they are made in a State and shipped to stores in other States. What Congress is saying is that it has the power to address local issues (that should be the exclusive domain of the States) if a product "moves" in interstate or foreign commerce. Such was clearly never the intention of those who signed the US Constitution and the intentions of the framers and signers is the eternal yardstick for Constitutionality. Accordingly, laws such Public Law 100-615 are unconstitutional - and errant decisions of the US Supreme Court can never make such laws Constitutional.

In a discussion on why a National Bank created by Congress would be unconstitutional, here is what Thomas Jefferson said in reference to the issue Congressional power over the field of commerce:


"...if this was an exercise of the power of regulating commerce, it would be void, as extending as much to the internal commerce of every State, as to its external. For the power given to Congress by the Constitution does not extend to the internal regulation of the commerce of a State, (that is to say of the commerce between citizen and citizen,) which remain exclusively with its own legislature; but to its external commerce only, that is to say, its commerce with another State, or with foreign nations, or with the Indian tribes."
Can we imagine that Thomas Jefferson would have found Public Law 100-615 Constitutional?

The "toy gun law" is just one example of literally thousands of laws that the federal government has enacted under highly suspect interpretations of the commerce clause in order to interfere in state affairs.


Will the real Interstate Commerce please stand up!
As we've discussed, the United States may legislate for its possessions and territories by a completely different set of rules than when legislating exclusively for the states of the Union under the authority of a Constitutionally delegated power.

Does it not then stand to reason that federal "interstate commerce" authority could be applied in a much more oppressive manner when involving the possessions and territories than when applied exclusively to commerce between the states of the Union?

We think the answer is self-evident. So the question becomes;

"Is there a separation between when the government applies its interstate commerce authority to the possessions and territories versus when it is applied to the states exclusively?"

The best way to answer that question is the look at existing federal law. Here is a section from Title 49 of the United States Code [Transportation] dealing expressly with "interstate transportation":

Section 10501 -

(2) Jurisdiction under paragraph (1) applies only to
  transportation in the United States between a place in -
      (A) a State and a place in the same or another State as part of
    the interstate rail network;
      (cool.gif a State and a place in a territory or possession of the
    United States;
      © a territory or possession of the United States and a place
    in another such territory or possession;
      (D) a territory or possession of the United States and another
    place in the same territory or possession;
      (E) the United States and another place in the United States
    through a foreign country; or
      (F) the United States and a place in a foreign country.

In this section we see some interesting things.

First, we note that the US assumes interstate commerce jurisdiction over a person or product that travels exclusively within the same State if it so travels on a railway that is used for interstate business - which is essentially all railways. In that definition we see that jurisdiction is not assumed based on what is taking place [intrastate], but rather upon what could take place [interstate].

Next we see that the US assumes interstate commerce jurisdiction if the transportation is "between a place in a State and a place in a territory or possession of the United States". Let's look again at the exact text of the commerce clause:


"...regulate commerce with foreign nations, and among the several states, and with the Indian tribes"
We think it apparent for the language of the clause that the grants interstate commerce authority to the federal government does not embrace commerce between the states of the Union and federal possessions and territories. Such places are not foreign nations, nor states of the Union, nor Indian tribes.

If there is no authority in the commerce clause that gives the United States the authority over commerce between the states of the Union and US territories, then where would authority come from to regulate commerce within the possessions and territories as well as between them and the other areas?

Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2 of the US Constitution states:


The Congress shall have power to dispose of and make all needful rules and regulations respecting the territory or other property belonging to the United States...
Would not control over commerce within the territories, as well as control over commerce moving into and out of a territory be the subject of "needful rules and regulations"? We believe so.

Accordingly, we find that we have two different Constitutional grants of authority that have an effect on commerce. One is specific concerning foreign nations, the several states, and Indian tribes; the other is a general rule-making authority for all matters that involve a US possession or territory.

When operating under the authority of the former, the government is constrained (in theory) by the original intent of the framers of the Constitution and what their view was of regulating commerce between the states. When operating under the latter, the government is unshackled from the constraints of "original intent" and may impose much broader controls.

So we now come to the meat of the issue. How does one reconcile these two distinct authorities when they are combined in one federal statute?

In the section shown above (10501) there is no distinction to be made because the only "state-to-state" language that appears involves the use of railroads, which has long been held to be completely within the regulatory control of Congress.

When a statute contains language that impose control over commerce between a State and a possession or territory, one can be certain that such authority is derived from the power to make all needful rules and regulations for the territories because any activity that originates in, or emanates from, such a possession or territory will be governed by the territorial authority of Congress.

Only state-to-state commerce is governed by the interstate commerce clause. State-to-territory commerce (or visa versa) is governed under the government's territorial authority, and commerce from a state to a foreign nation is governed by the foreign commerce language of the clause.

It should be noted that the government's territorial authority (Article IV, Section 3, Clause 2) inherently includes the power to regulate commerce moving into and out of the territories. The United States and its court will refer to this authority as "interstate commerce" authority, but one should not lose sight of the fact that this species of interstate commerce authority is not the same power granted in Article I, Section 8, Clause 4.


Corporations in Interstate Commerce
The US Supreme Court case of Hale v. Henkel is famous for what it says about the rights of private Citizens. However, equally meaningful (but generally overlooked) is what the Court says about corporations. The Court draws a clear distinction between a private Citizen and a corporation. The Court concluded that a corporation is granted into existence by the State "for the benefit of the public" and is thus subject to all manner of regulation that may be required to insure that end. The vast majority of interstate commerce laws that are on the books today apply primarily to corporations. Corporations may be regulated far more closely than citizens of the states of the Union. A Citizen is protected by the Privileges and Immunities clause of the US Constitution as he conducts his private affairs from state-to-state. Here is how the California Supreme Court described the right to travel from state to state with one's own property:


"Our conclusion is, that the right of transit through each State, with every species of property known to the Constitution of the United States, and recognized by that paramount law, is secured by that instrument to each citizen, and does not depend upon the uncertain and changeable ground of mere comity.
Ex parte Archy (1858) 9 Cal. 147, 163-164.
In other words, while it is indisputable that the federal government has Constitutional authority over interstate commerce, such authority can be applied far more rigorously and expansively to fictitious legal entities that exist for the public benefit than it can to a de jure Citizen who is simply pursuing his private affairs state-to-state. This is because the private Citizen has no obligation to promote or serve the "public benefit" and thus is not properly the subject of regulations created to benefit the public generally.

It should also be noted that there is no governmental authority that can alter, modify, or abolish a Citizen's fundamental rights, which existed before the formation of either the states or the federal government. Even the Constitution itself grants no such authority.

Although not directly involved in interstate commerce, allow us to digress for a moment and discuss the word "business". In ordinary speech this word simply means the conduct of the affairs in what we commonly call "work". However, in law, the word "business" almost always means a corporation, or the actions of a corporation. This is a pivotal point for one to understand when reading law. It is absolutely essential to understanding laws that are directed at corporations. In other words, in law, the words "corporation" and "business" are generally used as synonyms.

It should be noted that because of the way definitions are tortured in today's statutory law, what a private Citizen does to earn his living is properly referred to as a part of his "private affairs", and not "business".




Remember the only way to PROTECT YOUR RIGHTS, is to KNOW YOUR RIGHTS!
Poetic_Terrorist
and here is something else that will tickle your fancy...

so the use of a ZIP CODE in fact claims that you are living within a Federal District, which then allows for the taxation of income... hmmmm

We have be scammed for so long... are you ready to take the power back, for real?

_____________________________________________________________
http://www.wealth4freedom.com/law/zip_code.htm

No Zip Codes

Use Invokes Federal Jurisdiction


Use of the ZIP Code is voluntary. See Domestic Mail Services Regulations, Section 122.32. You should also know that the Postal service can not discriminate against the non-use of the ZIP Code. See "Postal Reorganization Act", Section 403, (Public Law 91-375). The federal government utilizes the ZIP code to prove that you reside in a "federal district of the District of Columbia". This is why the IRS and other government agencies (state and federal) require a ZIP Code when they assert jurisdiction by sending you a letter. They claim that this speeds the mail, but this is a sly and subtle TRICK. It is also prima facie evidence that you are a subject of Congress and a "citizen of the District of Columbia" who is "resident" in one of the several States.

The receipt of mail with a ZIP code is one of the requirements for the IRS to have jurisdiction to send you notices. The government cannot bill a Citizen of Illinois, because he is not within the purview of the MUNICIPAL LAWS of the District of Columbia. In fact, the Internal Revenue Service has adopted the ZIP code areas as Internal Revenue Districts. See the Federal Register, Volume 51, Number 53, Wednesday, March 19, 1986.

You must remember that the Postal Service is a private corporation, a quasi-governmental agency. It is no longer a full government agency. It is like the Federal Reserve System, the Internal Revenue Service, and the United States Marshall Service. They are all outside the restrictions of the Federal Constitution, as private corporations. They are all powerful in their respective areas of responsibility to enforce collection for the federal debt. So, if you are using a ZIP code, you are in effect saying openly and notoriously that you do not live in the State of Illinois, but, instead are a resident in the Illinois area of the District of Columbia (a federal district). There are some so-called Patriot groups that I consider to be patriots for money. They advocate the use of Title 42 suits (which are for federal citizens only), send mail to you with a ZIP Code, and ask you to do things that place you within the municipal jurisdiction of the District of Columbia.

Remember these individuals may be agents of the government or, even worse, are advocating a one-world government by the use of the Social Security number and the ZIP code.

So you must be aware of the movement towards a one-world government through annihilation or elimination of State Citizens by use of the so-called 14th Amendment and its related laws.

It is this writer's opinion, both as a result of study, e.g. of page 11 of the National Area ZIP Code Directory; of 26 U.S.C. 7621; of Section 4 of the Federal Register, Volume 51, Number 53, of Wednesday, March 19, 1986, Notices at pages 9571 through 9573; of Treasury Delegation Order (TDO) 150-01; of the opinion in United States v. LaSalle National Bank, 437 U.S. 298, 308, 98 S.Ct.2d 2357, 57 L.Ed.2d 221 (1978); of 12 U.S.C. 222; of 31 U.S.C. 103; and as a result of my actual experience, that a ZIP Code address is presumed to create a "Federal jurisdiction" or "market venue" or "revenue districts" that override State boundaries, taking one who uses such modes of address outside of a State venue and its constitutional protections and into an international, commercial venue involving admiralty concerns of the "United States", which is a commercial corporation domiciled in Washington, D.C.

More specifically, looking at the map on page 11 of the National ZIP Code Directory, e.g. at a local post office, one will see that the first digit of a ZIP Code defines an area that includes more than one State. The first sentence of the explanatory paragraph begins:

"A ZIP Code is a numerical code that identifies areas within the United States and its territories for purposes of ..." [cf. 26 CFR 1.1-1©].

Note the singular possessive pronoun "its", not "their", therefore carrying the implication that it relates to the "United States" as a corporation domiciled in the District of Columbia (in the singular sense), not in the sense of being the 50 States of the Union (in the plural sense). The map shows all the States of the Union, but it also shows D.C., Puerto Rico and the Virgin Islands, making the explanatory statement literally correct.

Properly construed, ZIP Codes can only be applicable in Federal territories and enclaves that may be located within the 50 States of the Union, and to the "United States" and District of Columbia and its territories -- cf. Piqua Bank v. Knoup, 6 Ohio 342, 404 (1856) and U.S. v. Butler, 297 U.S. 1, 63 (1936) to the effect that "in every state there are two governments; the state and the United States." Therefore, ZIP Code addresses are for the corporate "United States" and its agents (for example, a customs and duty collector at New York harbor, when they move out into the States of the Union to perform functions delegated to the "United States" by the National/Federal Constitution, or the Pennsylvania Department of Transportation, Bureau of Motor Vehicles, or a U.S. Congressman).

But, by propaganda, misleading information and seditious syntax, government has gotten nearly everyone in the 50 States of the Union to use ZIP Codes of address, and that creates a PRESUMPTION or a PREJUDICIAL ADMISSION that one is in such a Federal venue, or that one is such a government agent.

In general, it is well settled in law that Income Tax Statutes apply only to corporations and to their officers, agents, and employees acting in their official capacities, e.g. from Colonial Pipeline Co. v. Traigle, 421 U.S. 100, 44 L.Ed.2d 1, 95 S.Ct. 1538 (1975): "... However, all 'income tax statutes' apply only to state created creatures known as corporations no matter whether state, local, or federal." Since corporations act only through their officers, employees, etc., the income tax statutes reach out to them when acting in their official capacities, but not as individuals. This is the real purpose for Identifying Numbers -- cf. 26 CFR 301.6109-1(d) & (g) and 26 U.S.C. 6331(a) and 26 CFR 301.6331-1, Part 4.

Use of a ZIP Code address is tantamount to the admission of being a "citizen of the United States" who does not necessarily have the protections of the first eight Amendments to the Constitution (in the Bill of Rights) when proceeded against by Federal or State authority -- Maxwell v. Dow, 176 U.S. 581, 20 S.Ct. 448 (1900), but, "All the provisions of the constitution look to an indestructible union of indestructible states", Texas v. White, 7 Wall. 700; U.S. v. Cathcart, 25 F.Case No. 14,756; In re Charge to Grand Jury, 30 F. Case No. 18,273 (65 C.J. Section 2) -- not known to be overturned.

Grendelvs
that first long post about the Federal Reserve? where does it say anything about income tax? i must have missed it.

ZIP CODE ARGUEMENT: invokes, schminvokes. the Supreme Court states that citizens of the US "are subject to two governments: one State, and the other National." - United States v. Cruikshank, 92 U.S. 542 (1876)

the arguement over the use of "its" instead of "their" is ridiculous.

"A popular belief promoted in the freedom movement is the concept or idea that the United States is a foreign sovereign as regards the states. [T]he U.S. Supreme Court and other courts have concluded otherwise; see Claflin v. Houseman, 93 U.S. 130, 136 (1876)("The United States is not a foreign sovereignty as regards the several States"); Severson v. Home Owners Loan Corp., 88 P.2d 344, 347 (Ok. 1939)(quoting Claflin); Bowles v. Heckman, 64 N.E.2d 660, 662 (Ind. 1946)(quoting Claflin); Kersting v. Hardgrove, 48 A.2d 309, 310 (N.J. 946)(summarizes Claflin); Harrison v. Herzig Bldg. & Supply Co., 290 Ky. 445, 161 S.W.2d 908, 910 (1942)(quoting Claflin); Robinson v. Norato, 71 R.I. 256, 43 A.2d 467, 471 (1945)(quoting Claflin and further stating "the several States of the Union are neither foreign to the United States nor are they foreign to each other")." - http://fly.hiwaay.net/~becraft/deadissues.htm
Grendelvs
also for the Zip Code argument...if you were curious as to where it came from, go here:

http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/hardt...up_america.html

i found the articles on "LUCIFER'S NETWORK: Master of the New World Order" and "US Assumes Image of Beast: War to Enforce the Mark" to be excellent.

no, really.
Poetic_Terrorist
QUOTE(Grendelvs @ Oct 27 2005, 04:40 PM)
that first long post about the Federal Reserve? where does it say anything about income tax? i must have missed it.


It was also about the 14 amendment, which is directly related to paying taxes..

simple put, you are either:

1. a U.S. Citizen, subjected to laws of Congress
2. a Naturalized Citizen (Citizen of the several States), and Congress is subjected to the laws of the people, U.S. Constitution.

number 2 is better to be, why? cause the only laws that apply to you are those of the U.S. Constitution and not those of Congress. It states plainly and simply in the Bill of Rights what the Congress can do, and can not do. But it also states in 14th amendment that if you are U.S. Citizen that you have different laws upon you. So which are you? A 1 or a 2?

If you choose 1, you will get all the social programs to you.. like Social Security, Federal College Loans, Medicare, etc. But you have surrender your rights.. dont believe me? oh well, next time you are in court (if you go) ask if it is a 'Common Law' or 'UCC' court. I bet it will be UCC, and in UCC court the US Constitution does not apply. Have you ever wondered what the BAR really is? well the BAR stands for the British Accredited Registry, well i dont think we live in england now do we? Didnt we not fight two wars to make sure we no longer had a king or queen?

Now if you are a 2, then you will get NO help from the government from social programs.. nor do you have to pay federal income tax[there is your income tax correliation], but you will truly be free in the republic, you will only have to answer to a common law court, and you will be able to exercise your right of unlimited contractual agreements. As long as they do not go against the Constitution, like you can right a contract to make someone a slave for instance, but you could make a contract agreement to pay someone to paint your house for 50 dollars, even if it costs them more than that (which it does) they are obligated to do so if they signed the contract, no matter what, or else serve time... yup even if they are a '1'.. cause a '2' is a higher class citizen...

doesnt this all sound weird? am i just crazy? or possibly the government doesnt teach this stuff in school.. i wonder why? hmmmm.... could it be cause then they dont own you..

an FYI... everyone born in the USA is automatically classified as a '1' you have to write the government and maybe fight some(cause the feds dont want to lose control of you) and claim that you are now a '2'...

becareful though, i am planning on doing this soon, it will be harder to live in this country do to some of the nice social programs the feds have... but hey i would rather be free, than be slave.. no matter what the cost or struggle.

Also I dont know if any you ever noticed or just thought it was a typo.. but i use both 'USA' and 'uSA'. Where the United States of America is a corporation and entity and the (u)nited [notice the little u] States of America is the true representation and name of the federal government. Yeah yeah.. picky picky.. USA and uSA.. does it matter? Hell yeah it does. People have rights, corporations have permissions.. so.. do what you want i guess...

Grendelvs
they don't teach this stuff in school because it's fucking stupid. in order for it to be true:

- the words "citizen of the United States" must have a meaning in the 14th Amendment which is different than the meaning given those same words in other parts of the Constitution.

- the words "United States" must have a meaning in the first sentence of the 14th Amendment which is different than the meaning given those words in other parts of the Constitution.

- the word "jurisdiction" must have a meaning in the first sentence of the 14th Amendment which is different than the meaning given that word in other parts of the Constitution.

- the 14th Amendment must extend the power of Congress to legislate for "federal citizens" without regard to the limits on Congressional power found in other parts of the Constitution.

- the 14th Amendment created a new kind of citizenship, and did not merely extend the existing definition of "citizen" to include former slaves as well as whites.

- the 14th Amendment does not mean what it says, and does not apply to "all persons."

- the power of Congress to tax is limited by citizenship, and Congress cannot tax immigrants or foreigners who are within the United States but not citizens of the United States.

here is the 14th Amendment (for those who haven't read it)

"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Section 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several states according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each state, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the executive and judicial officers of a state, or the members of the legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such state, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such state.


Section 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any state, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any state legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any state, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.


Section 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any state shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.


Section 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article."

Section 1 is the only one that deals with Citizenship...see where it says ALL PERSONS born OR naturalized? that's one class of citizen. i don't know where you're getting your kool-aid from. please, within the confines of the 14th Amendment show me the delineation between types of citizen.
Poetic_Terrorist
believe what you want as i will believe what i want.. smile.gif
Grendelvs
QUOTE(Poetic_Terrorist @ Oct 28 2005, 12:48 AM)
...as i will believe what i want.[right][snapback]331682[/snapback][/right]


this usually means "i will believe what i'm told," but that's unfair, as i don't know you.

as i'm sure you'll agree, knowledge is power. and i won't feel that i've done my duty to my fellow American if i just let it go at that.

so, i'm going to take the sentence that deals with Citizenship and break it down. we'll see how much of my high school English i remember. or maybe this was junior high...i can't remember, since it's been over a decade.

i have to do this because the way i'm going to break the sentence down is what i understand it to mean. so if i do it wrongly, then my understanding of it is messed up. so please, if anyone finds an error in my logic, please fix it.

anyway, here is the sentence of the hour:

QUOTE(Grendelvs @ Oct 27 2005, 10:46 PM)
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.[right][snapback]331652[/snapback][/right]


long sentence. lucky for me, though, it's a simple sentence with only one subject and predicate. it's a little tricky because of the use of clauses, but i'll muddle through it, and when i'm done you can tell me how i fucked it up. or anyone, actually. i'd be pleased by it.

now, to determine the subject of a sentence, first isolate the verb and then make a question by placing "who?" or "what?" before it -- the answer is the subject. still, tricky...the first verb is "born*," but upon closer inspection the real verb is "are." so...who are? persons are. so "persons" is the simple subject of the sentence, and the other words of the subject modify it.

* - born is part of an adjective phrase. more later.

"persons" is modified by "all." so the subject starts out as "all persons." all persons are.

are? are what? a-ha...the verb is followed by an object that complete's the verb's meaning. in this case, the object is "citizens."

so the simple sentence is now "people are citizens." that is just a tad all-encompassing to be in the Constitution, so now we'll throw in the modifiers.

first the subject, "persons," is modified by the adjective "all," the phrase "born or naturalized" and the prepositional phrase "in the United States." this last one we'll leave last, but adjectives we can move around. so "all persons born or naturalized in the United States" becomes "all born or naturalized persons in the United States." just so we have all the adjectives together to simplify the subject a little bit.

now, the object has two prepositional phrases. "of the United States" and "of the State wherein they reside." they're connected by a conjunction (and) so they carry equal weight, which is important.

so. have i made any mistakes so far? i'm going to continue is a bit. for now, i'm a wee bit hungry.
Poetic_Terrorist
uh huh... right... your duty as an American you say?? lol

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside.


Sorry.. I am NOT subject to the jursidiction, that would make me a serf, or peasant, or something along those lines. This is NOT true, why? Because we fought for our independence from the King (Monarchy) so we as a nation wouldnt be as such. That is why the our wonderful Fore Fathers had the insight and intelligence to create the Bill or Rights that empowered the People and made the government subjected to its [people] power. NOT the other way around like the 14th amendment states.
Grendelvs
so...Congress has NO jurisdiction over you at all, you say?
Poetic_Terrorist
QUOTE(Grendelvs @ Oct 28 2005, 10:59 AM)
so...Congress has NO jurisdiction over you at all, you say?
[right][snapback]331788[/snapback][/right]


Nope! They listen to me and you [We the People].

Plus the 9th and 10th amendment clearly state what they can and can not do. Anything they try to do beyond that is unconstitutional because they do not, nor ever had the power to do such a thing.

Of course you probably wont agree... just like all the other Commie Scum trying to destroy the U.S. Constitution. Our Fore Fathers we tremendously intelligent and had supreme foresight to see abuses that could take place... that is why the Bill of Rights had the 9th and 10th amendment laid out as such. That is why (u)nited is used over 'United.' Do really think that they were that stupid? That they didnt know what they were doing?
Grendelvs
i'm Commie Scum now? that's excellent.

so, let me get this straight...does this mean that as long as you're not in any kind of federal enclave, you don't have to obey any federal laws? i mean, once you get your different citizenship.

i'm just trying to wrap my head around this.

Poetic_Terrorist
QUOTE(Grendelvs @ Oct 28 2005, 11:47 AM)
i'm Commie Scum now? that's excellent. 

so, let me get this straight...does this mean that as long as you're not in any kind of federal enclave, you don't have to obey any federal laws? i mean, once you get your different citizenship.

i'm just trying to wrap my head around this.
[right][snapback]331797[/snapback][/right]


Hmmm.. maybe you are not understanding.

By claiming you are a U.S. Citizen, you are basically saying that you live and are part of the Federal District, a.k.a. Washington D.C.. While if you are a natura citizen, a.k.a. State citizen or citizen of the Several States you are not part of the Federal District.

This doesnt mean I do not have to follow federal laws.. it means that I do not have to follow laws that are set forth for citizens of Washington D.C., the Federal District.

understand?

Grendelvs
i have one other question. in the Preamble where it says "We the people of the United States," does it speak of the plural or the singular?

this is important as it relates to the same language in the rest of the Constitution.

i'm sorry, i had two questions: what do you use for money?
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